Strike at the Root,
us as we protest Jewish supremacism on the streets of Los Angeles; an
interview with Mark Weber (pictured) of the Institute for Historical
On today's program an important protest against the Simon
Wiesenthal Center is announced, and we hear the latest on the charges
against prisoner of conscience Ernst Zundel in Germany.
American Dissident Voices broadcast
July 24, 2005
by Kevin Alfred Strom
TODAY WE have as our guest the historian, writer, speaker, and
activist extraordinaire Mark Weber, Director of the Institute for
Historical Review. Welcome to ADV, Mark.
MW: Thank you very much, Kevin. It's a pleasure to be here again.
KAS: There are quite a number of things I'd like to discuss
with you, Mark -- your recent speech in New York, your recent
interviews with news services, your upcoming protests against the
Jewish supremacists at the Simon Wiesenthal Center -- but first, let's
get your perspective on the recent developments in the case of Ernst
Zündel, the German-American artist and writer who has been subjected to
a decades-long persecution because of his views on German history,
Jewish power, and the history of World War II. I understand that after
two years of incarceration on phony pretexts, Mr. Zündel has finally
been charged in Germany.
MW: That's right. He was
held for two years in solitary confinement in Canada as a so-called
"threat to national security." This was a pretext, as even the leading
daily newspaper in Canada acknowledged. After being found to be a
"threat to national security" he was deported to Germany on March 1st
of this year, and he's been held ever since in what's called
That's a common practice in Germany and on the continent in lieu of
bail, which isn't quite as common in Europe as it is here. One good
thing about this development is that the conditions under which he has
been held in Germany's Mannheim prison are much better than the
conditions under which he was held in Canada. We've talked previously
on this show about some of the harsh, draconian circumstances of his
Canadian imprisonment, but in Germany his conditions have been better.
Just a few days ago -- and this has been reported fairly widely -- he
was finally formally charged, and I spent part of today trying to find
out the specific charges. I was told only that he has been charged
under the notorious Paragraph 130 of the German criminal code, which
makes it a crime to deny the Holocaust as a form of so-called "popular
incitement." That's the term Volksverhetzung, which is used in this
section of the German criminal code.
KAS: Well, what does that mean -- "popular incitement?" Does
that mean to get people excited about the fact that perhaps some of the
Holocaust stories are not true?
MW: It's considered "incitement" even to say truthful things about the Holocaust -- or the Holocaust story -- that go against
the official version. I cannot emphasize strongly enough that this is a
blatant, grotesque violation of the principle of free speech -- a
principle that the Western world, the United States, and even Germany
claim to uphold. The Holocaust story is the only chapter of official
history that it is considered a crime to deny.
Ernst Zündel is an outspoken international figure in this battle
because of the tremendous legal fight in which he engaged in Canada
during the 1980s in two very widely publicized trials. Actually, for
the last several years, before he was arrested two and a half years ago
in Tennessee, he was living pretty quietly in the United States and had
given up his operations in Canada, but against his intentions he's once
again been thrust into the international spotlight.
KAS: I understand there are 14 charges that have been laid against him. Is that correct?
MW: That's right. I've heard there are 14 counts, but I'm
unsure of what the specifics are. In the preliminary indictment under
which he was held before he was formally charged, the most ominous of
these counts is that he "denied the Holocaust" on the Zündelsite, an
Internet Web site that is actually run by his wife. The ominous and
dangerous aspect of this indictment is that he's being charged for an
expression of opinion that's legal in the country where it was expressed -- that is, in the United States.
I urge those listening to this interview to consult the Zündelsite to see what's there. You can find it by checking out zundelsite.org or going to the IHR site, ihr.org, and going to the links page. The Zündelsite is an American Web site that's maintained by his wife, not by Ernst Zündel himself. The Canadian and German courts have contested
this fact; they claim that he runs it, but I know for a fact that
that's not true. In fact, one of the strongest indications that this
claim is not true is that for two years Ernst Zündel has been unable to
operate any kind of Web site.
KAS: If she's committing this "crime," they would charge her
if they could. They can't charge her, though, because she's an American
MW: No, it's not because she's an American citizen. That's
yet another aspect of this case that's very worrisome. If she were to
go to Germany, she could be charged. Holocaust denial is a crime in
Germany whether the person is a German citizen or not. Hans Schmidt was
incarcerated for a time in Germany on similar charges even though he's
a naturalized U. S. citizen.
KAS: So, if I "deny the Holocaust" through some statement I
make today, for example, here in the United States, I could be subject
to prosecution under those same laws if I went to Germany?
MW: Well, it hasn't yet been applied that extensively, but even if you were a German national here in the United
States making a statement that's legal under American law, the
implication of what Germany is doing is that you could be "held
accountable." This would create international chaos. Imagine, for
example, if a Chinese citizen were to denounce the Communist Party of
China on an American Web site and then the Chinese government were to
ask that he be extradited to China to be punished for expressing those
KAS: I would imagine that Chinese nationals have done precisely that.
MW: I imagine that has happened, but so far the only person
to have been treated in this particularly grotesque manner has been
KAS: The Canadian Jewish Congress' spokesman Len Rudner said
that he was "very pleased" that the German prosecutors have charged
Ernst Zündel, and that they were calling for what they called a
"successful prosecution" in order to "completely discredit Ernst
MW: Right. This is a point that I've made over and over, and
I think it's an obvious one. Ernst Zündel would never have been
extradited and wouldn't be in the situation he's in now if it hadn't
been for the machinations of Canadian, American, and world Jewish
organizations that have been working vehemently for years to lock him
up and shut him up forever. I was very conscious of this fact when I
testified before a so-called "Human Rights Tribunal" in Toronto on
behalf of Ernst Zündel. I was very struck by the fact that there I was,
testifying along with Paul Fromm on behalf of Ernst Zündel in this
matter, but on the other side there was a small army of lawyers
representing all of the major Jewish organizations of Canada, who were there trying to punish Ernst Zündel and shut him up.
Amazingly, they were trying to punish him for statements that had appeared on the Zündelsite that are legal in Canada when made in printed form.
This makes the case even more grotesque, but these organizations are
not at all interested in any kind of fairness in this matter. It's
obvious that their motive is an intense desire for revenge on and
hatred for a man like Ernst Zündel, who has had the courage to speak
out against Jewish power over the years.
KAS: Ironically, it seems that they have given his work far more publicity than it would otherwise have had.
MW: That's true, but unfortunately, many people are so
afraid. The fact that Ernst Zündel is in jail is a very intimidating
thing. Most people rightly and understandably don't want to be put in
jail and punished as Ernst Zündel has been, which really underscores
once again what an extraordinary man he is.
KAS: Yes, very few of us would have the courage to go through what Ernst Zündel has gone through and remain defiant.
MW: He is both defiant and, in spite of everything,
remarkably upbeat and philosophical about his situation; and this comes
across to anyone who knows him well. It's also apparent in the letters
that he wrote during the time that he was being held in Canada and in
the letters that he's written since he's been in Germany. He sees
himself as having been thrust onto the world stage almost by destiny,
in spite of his efforts to live a quiet life in the United States with
his wife Ingrid, who, as you've mentioned, is a naturalized American
KAS: Have you been in contact with Mrs. Zündel? How's she taking the news?
MW: Well, it's very hard for her. I was in touch with her
today and I've been in touch with her pretty regularly. She's afraid
she'll never have her husband back and that she may never see him
again, because even if he's released from Germany, he's not permitted
to come back to the United States now.
And she's in a situation in which she would face arrest herself if
she were to go to Germany. She's been forced to be responsible for the
tremendous legal campaign in addition to all of the other work she was
doing before her husband was arrested. It's a tremendous burden and
emotional struggle for anyone in a situation like this and it's really
remarkable what a great job she's done carrying on over the last
KAS: Did you find out when we can expect a trial? When will this nightmare be on its way to being over for the Zündels?
MW: She told me that she does not expect a trial before
November at the earliest, so it'll be probably some time after that.
I'm trying right now to get a copy from Ernst Zündel's attorney of the
actual brief listing the formal charges against him. We want to do as
much as we can to encourage publicity for this case in Germany itself
and in the rest of Europe because Ernst Zündel is the most prominent
political prisoner in the Western world today and his case should be
given maximum publicity. It's really to the shame of groups like
Amnesty International that they have kept their hands off of this case
in spite of the outrageously unjust treatment Ernst has had to endure.
KAS: How can our listeners who may be interested in giving financial aid help support Ernst Zündel's legal campaign?
MW: They can send donations to his wife, Ingrid Rimland,
whose address is given on the Zündel Web site that I mentioned earlier.
Those who may encounter trouble accessing the site can also go to the
IHR Web site; the Zündel website is linked on the IHR links page. [If
you don't have Internet access, write to Ingrid Zundel, 3152 Parkway
#13, PMB109, Pigeon Forge, TN, 37863,
USA.] That's the best way to provide support.
One ominous aspect of Ernst's current incarceration, Ingrid told
me, is that he's now restricted to receiving and sending no more than
two letters a day. In recent months Ernst has received as many as sixty
letters a day, but his postal privileges are apparently being very
sharply curtailed now, although, of course, he has been writing a lot
from his prison cell in Germany.
KAS: What is done with the other fifty-eight letters that he can't see?
MW: I don't know, but it does indicate that letters sent to
him now may either not reach him at all or not without a tremendous
delay, or else they may just be sent back. All this is very sad, but
that's the situation right now.
KAS: Mark, I see from the IHR website that you have some
major activism planned for next week -- a protest in front of the Simon
Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. With so many institutions of Jewish
supremacism in this country and in this world, why are you protesting
against the Wiesenthal Center in particular?
MW: Well, one obvious reason is that its international
headquarters is located nearby -- it's in Los Angeles -- but another
reason is that the Wiesenthal Center is just as culpable and just as
dangerous as groups like the Anti-Defamation League or AIPAC in
promoting Jewish Zionist interests against the interests of the United
States and other countries. The Wiesenthal Center, however, has not
been targeted until now in the same way as these other groups have
because its emphasis on the Holocaust gives it a kind of protection or
shield; the Center is able to claim that "to attack us is to attack the
memory of the dead." The Wiesenthal Center is nevertheless every bit as
involved in the larger Jewish Zionist agenda as groups like the
Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith and AIPAC, and it's high time
that it be targeted.
KAS: Can you give us an overview of the Wiesenthal Center? Who's behind it? How was it started and what is its agenda?
MW: It was founded back in the 1970s and is headed by Rabbi
Marvin Hier, who calls himself the dean. He has no real educational or
other credentials except for this self-given one; he's a rabbi, and
nothing more. Still, the Wiesenthal Center is immensely influential. It
claims to have a membership of more than 300,000 and -- according to
its last filing -- had an annual income of 25 million dollars. One of
the most outrageous things about this income is that ten million
dollars a year of it comes from taxpayer funds. Over the years the
Wiesenthal Center has received at least ten million dollars in
California taxpayer funding alone in through state grants. Much of this
taxpayer money is given in return for so-called "tolerance courses"
that the Center gives to police agencies, which are really just an
indirect way of pushing the agenda of the Wiesenthal Center and other
Jewish Zionist organizations.
[ http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/wiesenthal.shtml ]
[ http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=746 ]
[ http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=2728 ]
KAS: It sounds like they have some friends in high places.
MW: Well, the Los Angeles Times Magazine had some
revealing things to say about Hier. It said that "he has accrued
unprecedented clout in the legislature, on Capitol Hill, in the city's
boardrooms, and even in Hollywood." Apropos of that, he is the only
rabbi to have received an Academy Award for a motion picture. This was
for a documentary that the Wiesenthal Center put out. They've been able
to get support from the current governor of California, Arnold
Schwarzenegger, and they received the support of former President
Ronald Reagan. Former U. S. Presidents, along with many governors of
various states and Senators have lent their names in support of the
KAS: They pose as a pro-tolerance, humanitarian organization, but there's a little bit more to it than that, isn't there, Mark?
MW: There's a lot more to it. The real agenda of the
Wiesenthal Center is a very narrow Jewish Zionist one and anyone who
takes a look at its Web site or its magazine can easily see that most
of its effort is spent in pushing Israeli interests and Jewish
KAS: They support what is called the "Apartheid wall" or the "Security Fence" in Israel, do they not?
MW: Right. I'm sure many listeners to this interview are
familiar with it, but for those who aren't, this is a really grotesque
thing. This is a huge barrier that's been built on occupied Palestinian
land that in many places is three times higher than the Berlin Wall
was. It's been found to be illegal by the International Court of
Justice and it's been condemned by the United Nations, but the
Wiesenthal Center has fervently defended it in spite of its illegal and
KAS: I understand that there are some Jewish authors and
Jewish advocacy groups that themselves question the ethics and agenda
of the Wiesenthal Center. Can you expand on that?
MW: There's a lot of competition for money among these
various Jewish groups and the Wiesenthal Center's biggest competitor
for bucks is the Anti-Defamation League. The ADL is unhappy with the
clearly reckless way that the Wiesenthal Center goes about collecting
money. A few years ago the League acknowledged in an internal
memorandum that was made public and reported in the Los Angeles Times that the Wiesenthal Center makes inaccurate and exaggerated claims
about anti-Semitism in order to raise money. An ADL official cited a
Wiesenthal Center fundraising letter that is, as he put it, "replete
with factual misstatements and exaggerations about anti-Jewish
sentiment in the United States and Europe." That's a polite way of
saying that the Wiesenthal Center wildly exaggerates the so-called
"danger to Jews." If you read any copy of its glossy, sensationalist
magazine Response, you'll get the impression that brown-shirted
storm troopers are about to take over all over the world. There's this
persistent theme in the Wiesenthal Center periodicals that neo-nazis
and dangerous people everywhere are just about to push Jews into gas
ovens. The Center plays on fear.
[ http://www.ihr.org/news/swc.shtml ]
KAS: So, it's even too much for the ADL?
MW: It's even too much for the ADL. In fact, it's so bad,
that when the Wiesenthal Center at one point put out a report about
Switzerland during World War II, even Simon Wiesenthal distanced himself from it because it was so exaggerated. It claimed that during World War II the
Swiss had locked up Jews in concentration camps and had mistreated
them, which was completely untrue. This was part of the big shakedown
campaign that many listeners might remember to squeeze billions of
dollars for Israel and for Jewish organizations from the Swiss
government, Swiss corporations, and Swiss banks.
KAS: Which was successful, I might add.
MW: Which was very successful, but also very grotesque. That
campaign, in which the World Jewish Congress played the largest role,
is still not forgotten by a lot of people in Europe, who are very
resentful about the heavy-handed and grotesque way that Switzerland was
targeted and blackmailed.
KAS: I understand that the Wiesenthal Center also has its
hands in the education of ordinary schoolchildren, pushing their view
of history and their very Jewish-focused agenda on the minds of
vulnerable young people.
MW: That's right. Every school day busloads of
schoolchildren are brought to the Wiesenthal Center. One of the reasons
that I decided to organize this campaign is that I learned of a
schoolteacher in San Diego who was unhappy that his children, who were
attending a private Catholic school, were going to be bused to the
Wiesenthal Center. He didn't know or understand as much as many people
do about the Center's overall agenda, but he was particularly unhappy
that Rabbi Hier and the Center have denounced Pius XII, who was Pope
during the Second World War, and other Catholic and Christian leaders
of the wartime era.
I've been struck by just how many people, no matter what their
starting point might be, are offended at the way the Wiesenthal Center
has handled this issue. Anyway, this man organized a campaign at his
own school to dissuade parents from going along with the Wiesenthal
Center visits -- but the Center continues to encourage them and is
treated almost as a branch of the California government.
KAS: They have a close relationship with Arnold Schwarzenegger, do they not?
MW: Yes. Many people say that Arnold Schwarzenegger paid
half a million dollars or more to the Wiesenthal Center, which then
gave him a kind of "clean bill of health" after it was discovered that
his father had been a member of the National Socialist party during
World War II. This was sort of a way to "get him off the hook," so that
he would not be being criticized for his father's past. Several years
ago the state legislature gave a five million dollar grant to the
Wiesenthal Center and tried to justify it by saying, "Well, it gets all
these schoolchildren there." One schoolteacher remarked in response
that thousands of schoolkids might go to McDonald's every day too, but
the state doesn't pick up the tab for their lunches.
It's really outrageous that at a time when schoolteachers all over
the state are asking parents to supply pencils and paper for schools,
and there's a real shortage in the state budget for educational
expenses and for highways, that the Wiesenthal Center has been given
these millions of dollars.
Another example of the Center's power is the boasting of the man
who's now the mayor of Los Angeles, Antonio Villaregosa, about his role
in getting -- he said -- 18 million dollars for the Wiesenthal Center
when he was in the state legislature. The Center is so powerful and so
influential in this state that every politician must essentially go and
make his peace with it and be given its approval in order to have an
effective role in California politics.
KAS: If they didn't do that, what would happen?
MW: Well, all sorts of forces would be mobilized against
them. What happens -- not just in California but in Washington as well
-- is that AIPAC, the ADL, and the Wiesenthal Center insist that
candidates declare themselves on the issues that are of great concern
to American Jews -- and if they don't come up with the answers that
these organizations want, then Jewish groups will punish them by
supporting their opponents or, at a very minimum, by making sure that
money for their campaigns dries up. It's a remarkable fact that,
according to Jewish analysts of the American political scene, something
like half of the money that goes to the Democratic Party's presidential
campaigns comes from Jewish sources, along with about a quarter of the
money for Republican presidential campaigns.
KAS: That's from two and half percent of the U. S. Population.
MW: That's from two and a half percent of the U. S.
population. It means that Jews have more political clout and power than
any other single ethnic or religious group in American life. It
effectively means that Jews have a tight grip on political life in this
country, and the Wiesenthal Center plays a very important role in this
corruption of our political system.
KAS: What is the date of your demonstration, Mark?
MW: It will be on Friday, July 29th, at noon -- and we're
going to be demonstrating at the offices of the Wiesenthal Center.
We're encouraging people who would like to participate to contact us
beforehand; they can contact us through the IHR website at ihr.org or by writing to my email address, firstname.lastname@example.org . We're looking forward to a good demonstration that will finally focus
some attention on the Wiesenthal Center's real record -- in a very
[ http://www.ihr.org/news/050629_rally.shtml ]
* * *
Be with us again next week as we continue our discussion with IHR
director Mark Weber. We'll be talking about even more of the outrages
against freedom and free speech committed by the Wiesenthal Center --
and new efforts around the world to stop the Jewish supremacist agenda,
its war of aggression in the Middle East, and the war of terror that
has now come to us as a result.
I also want to let you know that this coming September 11 -- the
birthday of National Vanguard founder William Pierce -- will mark our
largest-ever organized pro-White literature distribution. National
Vanguard's Western States coordinator Roger Williams has created two
important new flyers focusing on homeland security and border control
for this effort, and I'd like every American Dissident Voices
listener to take part. To see the flyers and make your own copies for duplication, just visit nationalvanguard.org/911
or write to: National Vanguard, Box 5145, Charlottesville VA 22905.