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Kevin Alfred Strom Archive


Zundel Persecution By Order of Jews,
Part 2

On this week's program Mr. Strom continues his interview with the spokesman for the Zundel family, historian Mark Weber. Ernst Zundel -- imprisoned for publicly doubting Zionist myths -- personifies the struggle for freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and freedom of inquiry. His struggle for freedom is our struggle for a decent and free future for our posterity.

An interview with Mark Weber of the Institute for Historical Review.

American Dissident Voices broadcast
March 12, 2005
by Kevin Alfred Strom

ON TODAY'S PROGRAM we continue our update on the Zundel case, as Mr. Zundel, one of the world's foremost political prisoners and prisoners of conscience is newly imprisoned in Mannheim prison in Germany for the "crime" of doubting the court historians and the Jewish supremacist and Zionist lobby's view of history. I don't believe there is any clearer case in the world of a man who is in prison because of the dictates of his conscience and his determination to use his voice and pen to state the truth as he sees it. It is not an exaggeration to say that the fate of freedom in the West will be affected for decades to come, perhaps even centuries, by what is happening to Ernst Zundel right now.

In just a moment, we will be joined by Mark Weber, historian and Director of the Institute for Historical Review, on American Dissident Voices.

KAS: I wonder what would happen if 1,000 men showed up if front of Mannheim prison and stated on placards, or just stated with their loud voices, that they, too, doubted the Jewish version of WW II history...

MW: Well, I think demonstrations can really be effective in this because there's less and less will to enforce these ridiculous laws, these anti-Free Speech laws, because they run so counter to the principles that the country claims to uphold. At the same time, Ernst Zundel is so blunt and forthright in his views that even many nationalists in Germany are fearful of associating themselves with him because they want to say "no, no, you see, we're nationalists, or we're 'this' -- but we're not like that Ernst Zundel."

Zundel is a provocative man; he's often deliberately provocative. That's a strength but it can also be a source of weakness at times. But, overall, Ernst Zundel's courage and his feistiness have been some of his greatest strengths.

KAS: I saw one photograph, on the newswires, that showed Ernst Zundel on arrival at the German prison, and he was smiling, looking very upbeat. Is there any word on how his spirits are right now?

MW: I talked to him just hours before he was put on a plane and sent to Germany. It was the last phone conversation we may have in years. And, as usual, Ernst Zundel's mood is three things simultaneously.

First, he's a person who's realistic; he's not under any illusions about the situation he's in.

Second, he's upbeat. He's eternally an optimistic man who tries to see the best of any given situation but, at the same time, his view is tempered with a sober realism.

Third, he was philosophical. I was very struck by how he sees his fate as part of a larger unfolding of events, and sees himself as a man who's playing a role -- an important role, but just one role -- in a very large unfolding drama. He says "fate is not done with me yet." He said he'd survived fire-bombings, assassination attempts, imprisonment, an enormous legal campaign by powerful Jewish organizations in Canada, and he said all that didn't happen just so everything ends now. When he says fate is not done yet with Ernst Zundel, I think he's quite right about that.

This combination of a kind of philosophical view of himself, and an utter lack of any self-pity, and realism, and optimism, are characteristics of Ernst Zundel's personality that struck me when I first met him in 1988, and I think they characterize his general character and personality.

KAS: Is there any hope at all for anything from the Canadian or American courts to stop this circus and get Ernst home? Or have all of those avenues been exhausted?

MW: In Canada I think the chapter's really closed on doing anything there; I don't think any more can be done there. In fact it's almost a fluke that, after he was taken from the United States, he was even taken back to Canada. If a few things had gone differently, he might've been put on a plane and sent directly to Germany at that time.

Here in America, attorneys representing Ernst Zundel are still fighting to overturn his deportation and the order banning him from the United States for 20 years. It's a pretty outrageous thing. But given the powers that have been given to the government -- especially in the wake of September 11th -- and the fact that Ernst Zundel is not a US citizen, it's going to be very difficult to overturn that. The real battle is going to be fought in Germany now.

KAS: Is Ernst Zundel adequately represented in Germany?

MW: Without going into detail, I understand that he is. My information is that the main attorney who's representing him is really a first-rate, capable man. We have yet to see what's going to happen but, so far, yes. Over the next several weeks, it'll be very revealing to see what his legal recourse is going to be and how exactly he's going to fight it.

KAS: The language of the prosecution and the defense will be German, and the events will no longer turn on American or Canadian decisions. Will, in your opinion, this make the story disappear in North American media?

MW: Yes, largely. Largely I think it will, and it's also going to be harder to raise money for his legal defense because it's difficult in the European context to raise money for legal defense in the same way we're used to doing here in the United States or in Canada -- the situation's different. But, again, I think we're just seeing really the bare beginnings of it and there's many different ways this could play out.

KAS: You're not planning on a diminution on coverage in your own alternative media, the IHR web site, are you?

MW: We've been giving a lot of coverage to all of this. Not just because of the very important role he played during the 1980s and in bringing out a fabulous amount of new information on the Holocaust and the Second World War, but also because he's spoken twice at IHR conferences -- he was at the very first IHR conference in 1979; and because he's a friend: I've known him, and I've testified on his behalf... we feel a kinship and a relationship for those reasons. And also he is the personification right now in the world of the struggle for free historical inquiry and free historical expression. He's been the number one political prisoner in North America, he's now an important political prisoner in Europe, and he deserves the support of everyone who cares about free speech and free inquiry.

KAS: How are Jewish groups reacting to these events?

MW: Predictably, the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles and the Anti-Defamation League in New York immediately issued a crowing, exultant press release applauding (of course) the transfer of Zundel to Germany, and his arrest there. I cannot stress it too highly: These organizations have been gunning for Ernst Zundel for many years and they have been doing everything they can to silence him.

KAS: Paul Fromm recently told the media that this is "coming at a very volatile time. There's a lot of discontent in Germany in right now and Ernst Zundel may well be a rallying point for Germans who are sick and tired of hearing about the holocaust and German guilt." We saw members of the major German nationalist party, the NPD, walk out during a Jewish Holocaust ceremony and also openly call the allied attack on Dresden a "Holocaust of Bombs." How is Ernst Zundel going to alter the face of the historical debate in Germany, and will he find allies there?

MW: The extent of which he'll find allies is not yet clear. But it is true the mood is changing in Europe. There's a greater awareness, by a new generation, that people other than Jews were victims in the second World War.

You know it's especially ironic that we hear so much about the Holocaust; "holocaust" means a consuming by fire. Literally hundreds of thousands of Germans were consumed in a holocaust during the second World War -- victims of terror bombings in that terrible conflict. More and more Germans are not willing to just be silent when we hear over and over about one category of victimization -- and nothing about the suffering of other people during the Second World War.

You know this just can't go on like it has. The Holocaust campaign over the last 20 to 30 years has increasingly shifted the finger of blame -- and pointed it not just at Germans or "Nazis," but at all Europeans and, indeed, all of humanity. Humanity is more and more collectively regarded by Jewish organizations as having this guilt, or responsibility, for what's alleged to be the greatest crime in history. This is impossible over the long run to pull off. Some people will sort of go along with it, but it's absurd on its face and it's the logical extension of how Jews see the Second World War and the Holocaust. They see it as part of a larger historical drama, in which there's a constant struggle between non-Jews and Jews, and Hitler is regarded as the most recent of a long line of leaders who have been anti-Jewish.

KAS: Well, they keep wailing that 'the world is against us'; it seems to me that if they wail long enough, it may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

MW: It's not going to go on forever, that the world will just go along with this lament. It may resonate with Jews, but it isn't going to resonate with non-Jews forever. We're seeing, really, I think, all over the world, a real change in that regard. The treatment of Ernst Zundel really points up he's not a perpetrator, he's a victim.

This is an important thing. Palestinians are victims of Jewish power. Around the world there's a greater and greater awareness that Jews wield a tremendous power in our society and are going to use it to oppress, to carry out war and destruction... this awareness cannot help but play a role in all this. Now that may be a process of awareness too slow to help Ernst Zundel immediately, but the mood is changing all over the world.

KAS: I don't know who said it first, but it has been said that "we're all Palestinians now" and, in a sense, I think people are waking up to that.

MW: I'm very pleased that there's an increasing world-wide awareness about the forces that brought about the Iraq war. The same President that lied to the public to carry out this war against Iraq is now agitating, along with his neo-con friends in the White House, for war against Iran and Syria. This should make it obvious to everyone this isn't a war about oil; it's a war, as Senator Hollings of South Carolina said, to secure Israel. This is a conflict for Jewish interests.

The world has no interest in war in Iran. The only country and the only group that has an interest in war against Iran is Israel and organized Jewry. A war against Iran would be catastrophic, would be terrible, and the whole world knows this. But Israel and Jewish groups are pressing for war against Iran or against Syria and the cost, unfortunately, will be a very high one paid, not by Israel and American Jews, but paid with lives and blood and treasure of millions of people in the United States, in the Middle East, and other places.

KAS: All of them as innocent as Ernst Zundel.

Mr. Zundel is 65 years old, Mark. And he stands accused of speech crimes that could earn him significant prison time in Germany. Do you think that he will be convicted and, if so, will he spend the rest of his life in jail?

MW: I don't think he'll spend the rest of his life in jail. It's even questionable whether he'll be convicted. As I say, the charges against him are not only absurd but they're very flimsy. He's being charged with "Holocaust denial" on the basis of articles on a Web site in the United States that he doesn't even control. He might still be found guilty, as absurd as that is, but, even so, it's hard to imagine how he would be held for the rest of his life -- even if he is found guilty on that absurd change.

KAS: What sort of sentence do you think would be meted out? Two years... three years... five years... if he's convicted?

MW: Based on what's happened to others, who have been in a similar situation, generally the sentences have been running about a year and a half -- something like that. In prison, I mean. Of course there are other people who are punished with fines and punished in other ways. Sometimes the sentences are suspended. Gunter Deckert was, I think, sentenced to 15 months in prison for being an interpreter for a talk given by Fred Leuchter in Germany. David Irving, for making a statement at a meeting in Munich, was fined, I think, 30,000 marks and banned from the country; so, in his case, he wasn't arrested, and he wasn't jailed. That's kind of the range of the level of punishment in these cases. I guess the good news is that, even if he's found guilty, it's not so likely that he would be held for as long as he was just held -- for two years in solitary confinement in supposedly "free and democratic" Canada.

KAS: That's good news in a way -- if it turns out that way. I suppose then the focus would switch to becoming reunited with his wife and fighting to be able to return to his home in Tennessee, if he can actually do that.

MW: Right. Zundel was correct when he said that Providence is not done with him yet. It's ironic that all he wanted to do was live rather quietly in Tennessee with his wife and paint pictures. Fate has thrust him onto the world stage again.

KAS: Ernst Zundel has always been a man who can take a bad situation and do something positive with it. He's a man of great creativity and energy. He took the false news trials, and the Web site trials, and the latest sham proceedings, and turned them (for anyone who would listen, anyway) into a damning indictment of the Jewish power structure -- and its lies, its distortions, its outrageous corruption and manipulation of the legal system. Now he'll be on trial again, this time just for speaking his mind -- and in the country which has been the focus of both the Jews' efforts to vilify, and Zundel's efforts to set the record straight. I predict there will be fireworks. What do you think?

MW: That's what I hope. And you're right: Ernst Zundel has never been one to just take things lying down, and he's always been a man to make the most of any situation. It's going to be incumbent upon us to do everything we can to keep things up, and increase awareness about all of this. I've been very encouraged by the expression of support -- even before Ernst landed in Germany -- that we've seen from Germany just in the last couple of days that he's been there now.

KAS: What can our listeners do to help Ernst in his fight for his freedom?

MW: They can organize demonstrations and write to German consulates and embassies in the countries where they live. They can inform themselves about the case. There's a tremendous amount of information, not only on just what's been happening recently, but background information, on the IHR site at Beyond that, they can also contribute money to the legal defense campaign by going to the Zundelsite, and of course they can support the IHR, and our efforts as well. But what exactly are going to be the most effective things to do after that, I think will be more obvious within the next few weeks.

KAS: Mark, we're going to be watching the situation with Ernst Zundel in Germany very closely. We're going to be giving his fight for freedom, and freedom of expression, a lot of publicity on, and on this radio program, and I want to thank you for being a part of that. I want to thank you for being a stalwart friend to Ernst Zundel and a friend of freedom of speech, and for helping bring the truth to light through your work with the Institute for Historical Review. Thank you very much.

MW: Thank you, Kevin, and you deserve tremendous praise yourself for the work that you've been doing.


Source: National Vanguard

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