Zundel Persecution By Order of Jews,
As discussed on this week's radio
program, the twenty-year persecution of Ernst Zundel has nothing to do
with the supposed "legal" reasons which are officially invoked -- and
everything to do with Jewish vengeance and criminal Jewish manipulation
of the legal systems of three nations.
An interview with Mark Weber.
American Dissident Voices broadcast
March 5, 2005
by Kevin Alfred Strom
THERE ARE MANY STRANDS that make up the
knot of tyranny which increasingly binds the minds of men. But none are
more obvious -- and none are more odious -- than the cords that bind a
man who will, in my opinion, one day be regarded as one of the heroes
of this age, Mr. Ernst Zundel, late of Pigeon Forge, Tennessee and now
of Mannheim prison in Germany. Mr. Zundel was just shipped in chains to
Germany after the most shameful imaginable quasi-legal terrorism and
sham proceedings by the governments of the United States and Canada.
The Star Chamber has returned to North America. Mr. Zundel's "crime" is
that of publicly doubting what Jews say about World War II -- nothing
more. All else is pretext. The "missed immigration hearing" was the
Bush-neocon administration's pretext to kidnap him and ship him from
his home and hearth and wife into Canada, where he was held in solitary
confinement for two years without charge and subjected to a secret
trial under a "judge" who once headed the secret police agency which
knowingly put him in mortal danger, probably hoping to kill him on
orders of its Jewish masters.
So now the Alice-in-Wonderland
"ruling" has been issued, and the innocent writer and thinker Ernst
Zundel is in yet another prison, now charged in Germany with doubting
the extremely doubtful but legally-protected story of the "Holocaust."
So now the focus shifts to Europe, where awareness of Jewish power is
growing and yet also where free speech is not a right and doubting the
Jewish version of World War II history is a crime.
To discuss this important event we have as
our guest today Mr. Mark Weber, Director of the Institute for
Historical Review. Mr. Weber is not only an historian, but he has
served as the Zundel family's American spokesman, giving many media
interviews, organizing protests and speaking events in the cause of
freeing this innocent man.
Kevin Alfred Strom: Welcome to the program, Mark.
Mark Weber: Thank you very much, Kevin. It's a pleasure to be on again.
KAS: Can you give us a brief synopsis of the events beginning with the judge's "ruling" in Canada a few days ago?
MW: Well, the last several weeks
have been dramatic. It was on the 24th or 25th that Judge Blais handed
down his long-awaited decision on the accusation that Ernst Zundel is a
"threat to national security" -- which is fantastic, really. Ernst
Zundel has been held for two years in solitary confinement in Canadian
detention on the charge that he's a "threat to national security." Just
about every neutral observer of the scene rejects that as an empty
pretext. It's amazing that in the last several days even a number of
journalists on national television have stressed, admitted, or
acknowledged, over and over, that this charge is really preposterous.
In any case, Judge Blais handed down his
ruling and declared that Ernst Zundel is a "threat to national
security." Now he did so on the basis of evidence that no one can see.
It seems to be based entirely on who Ernst Zundel has met with and
talked with over the past several years, and he alleges that Ernst
Zundel is a "central figure" in a sinister network of right-wingers,
nationalists, White supremacists, and so forth. But no actual evidence
of any wrongdoing or any real threat was cited by the judge. And it
only underscored the emptiness of the pretext under which Ernst Zundel
has been held.
Very shortly after Judge Blais issued this
ruling, Ernst Zundel was informed that he would be deported to Germany.
He's a German national, and although he had been living in Canada for
more than 40 years, for the last several years -- until he was
incarcerated in Canada -- he had been living in Tennessee with his
wife. On the second of March, Ernst Zundel was packed up, put on an
airplane, and sent to Germany. And as we speak he's now being held in a
prison in Mannheim, Germany, and he has been charged with violating
that country's strange law which makes it a crime to "deny the
Holocaust," that is, to dispute the official version of the fate of
Europe's Jews during World War II.
It's unclear what will happen next, when there will be a trial, and so forth.
One of the amazing facets of this whole
thing is that before he was deported from the United States two years
ago, Ernst Zundel had been living quietly in Tennessee with his wife,
Ingrid Rimland. He's now become far better known -- and
his whole case has become far better known -- as a result of his arrest
in the United States, his deportation to Canada first and now to
Germany. The case has now become an international affair. Ernst Zundel
and his ordeal are now much better known that ever they were before he
was taken away in February 2003.
KAS: Indeed. How is Mrs. Zundel -- Ingrid Rimland Zundel -- taking this?
MW: Well, I spoke with her just the other day. It's a big blow, of course. She's afraid she'll never see her husband again.
As it happens, on the third of February,
she and I spoke at a meeting here in southern California organized by
the IHR. This was the first address that Ingrid had given to any
audience about her husband's ordeal, about the background of the whole
thing, since he was taken away from her in February of 2003. She talked
about how, right after he was arrested, it was a really great blow. She
was very subdued and it was very difficult. Then, of course, life picks
up and a new pattern emerges. And she has, with great fortitude, borne
this tremendous burden that has fallen on her shoulders, organizing
this campaign for his release during the past couple of years.
And when I spoke to her again just a few
days ago, she was of course very subdued again. It's a terrible blow,
and she's afraid she'll never see him again. She runs the risk, of
course, even visiting him in Germany, that she might be arrested
herself and put in prison, because the laws in Germany are very bizarre
in this respect.
KAS: What a sad, sad situation for a married couple to be in.
MW: It's a very very sad situation.
There's a number of aspects of this whole case that are really
remarkable. Ernst Zundel was arrested and taken away in Tennessee on
the pretext that he had missed an immigration hearing. He was held in
Canada for two years in solitary confinement on the empty pretext that
he's a "threat to national security." And now he's being held in
Germany on the charge that he "denies the Holocaust." In all three
cases, the charges are empty or they are political in nature or both.
But, no matter the character of the individual circumstances in each
case, they all point up the tremendous symbolic role that Ernst Zundel
has taken on.
It's important to stress that Ernst Zundel
has been targeted in this way not because of anything he's actually
done. I mean, the charge that he's a "threat to national security" is
really preposterous on its face, as even the leading newspaper in
Canada, the Globe and Mail, has on two occasions editorially
affirmed. What's significant is that Ernst Zundel fought a tremendous
battle in the courts in the 1980s over the Holocaust issue. He
enormously publicized the entire Holocaust Revisionist case of
skepticism about the official Holocaust story. And I can attest
personally -- I've seen this myself -- that the Canadian Jewish groups
and the American Jewish groups absolutely hate this man and are determined to put him away and shut him up any way they can.
KAS: Yes; when you strip away all the legal pretexts and the sham moralizing it comes to down to a case of Jewish vengeance.
MW: A popular public affairs program in Canada called The Michael Coren Show has dealt -- three or four times now in the last few weeks -- with the
Zundel case. And there's been unanimous agreement -- even by the host
of the show, who's Jewish, and the others who've been on the show --
that Ernst Zundel is not a threat to national security. But one guest
in particular was emphatic in saying that Zundel is in prison because Jewish groups want him in prison. This is a point which very few people are willing to say openly, but which must be said.
If Ernst Zundel is not really a threat to
national security, then an immense injustice has been done to this man.
He's been held for two years, then, unjustly. He's a victim -- he's not
a perpetrator -- he's a victim of injustice. And the question arises: Who are the perpetrators? -- and how can they be held accountable for the injustice against him and against others like him?
KAS: Indeed. We must not forget that.
Is anyone able to speak with Mr. Zundel?
MW: Well, I don't know now what the
situation is, how freely he is able to speak. When he was in solitary
confinement in Canada, he was permitted to make collect telephone calls
out, as long as the authorities were notified in advance to whom he was
calling. As your listeners may know from previous broadcasts, he was
held under draconian conditions. The light was never turned off in his
cell; he was not permitted to have even a pen, he had to write with
pencils; he was not allowed to have a desk -- very draconian. I don't
know now what the situation is, but it's hard to imagine that
circumstances that he will be held under in Germany will be any worse
than they were in Canada.
At least now he has the right to confront
the evidence against him, whatever it is, and to deal with it in a kind
of normal way. When someone is held in Canada or other countries under
the pretext of "national security," all the normal rules are thrown out
the window, and, as I mentioned, in Zundel's case in Canada he was not
permitted to confront or refute or respond to the supposed evidence
that was presented against him.
KAS: So this is not going to be a secret trial, as was the one in Canada.
MW: Right. One of the remarkable
aspects of the case now in Germany is that Ernst Zundel has been
charged with "Holocaust denial" because of what's been posted on the
so-called Zundelsite. ( http://www.zundelsite.org/ which is linked to the Institute for Historical Review site, http://www.ihr.org/ ) The Zundelsite contains quite a lot of material that is called
"Holocaust denial." But it's important to remember a couple of things.
First, the Web site, despite the name, is not really Ernst Zundel's Web
site. And that's not just a quibble. His wife runs the Web site. His
wife controls the Web site. Not only does Ernst Zundel not have access
to it -- he doesn't even know the password.
But the most obvious evidence that the site is not run by Ernst Zundel is the fact that it's been running for two years while he's been in solitary confinement in Canada.
Second, the Web site is based not in
Germany or even in Canada, but in the United States. And to punish a
person for what is posted on a Web site in another country -- where
that material is legal -- opens up a very dangerous door for abuse. Let
us consider for a moment the implications if that becomes the general
principle. It could mean, for example, that a Chinese person living in
the United States who posts something on an American Web site
denouncing Communist rule in China, could be punished and even
extradited from the United States to China and punished there for doing
something that's quite legal in this country but illegal in China. As
everyone knows, there are laws all around the world that we in America
don't agree with -- in fact, there are laws in America that Americans
fifty years ago wouldn't have agreed with. So for a person to make a
statement on a Web site in a country where it's legal, and then have
that person punished in another country, is a very dangerous thing
KAS: There are some of your
writings up on the Zundelsite. And I know that there are some of mine
there as well. Haven't some of your writings there been the subject of
MW: Right. Some essays that I've
written, which are posted on the IHR Web site, are also posted on the
Zundelsite. And they've been, under German law, "indexed." That means
they're not exactly banned, but there are certain restrictions on them.
They're put in a category in Germany similar to the category under
which pornography is placed.
And Jewish groups in Canada tried, after
they were unsuccessful in "getting" Zundel during the 1980s, to shut
him up and punish him for what appeared on the Zundelsite during the
1990s. This was done before a quasi-legal body called the "Human Rights
Tribunal" and on two occasions I testified before this tribunal on
behalf of Ernst Zundel. And part of the reason I testified was, as you
mentioned, that some of the writings that were objected to were written
But the incredible thing is that these writings, because of the court cases that Ernst Zundel fought in the 1980s, were legal in printed form in Canada -- and are now legal in printed form in Canada -- but Jewish organizations were trying to punish or shut up Ernst Zundel for these same writings when they appeared on the Internet on the Zundelsite -- which, as I
said, is run by his wife and not by him and is based in the United
KAS: It sounds like the court of the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland.
MW: On the fourth of February we
held a demonstration outside the Canadian Consulate in downtown Los
Angeles, and there were maybe 50 Los Angeles policemen in the middle of
the street separating our demonstration from the very raucous
demonstration by the Jewish Defense League on the other side of the
street. I can say that one of the most gratifying aspects of that
demonstration was the support we got from people who represent a whole
range of political views. Ernst Zundel has become a symbol -- a
lightning rod -- a rallying point -- for people concerned about the
issue of freedom of speech. And it's very gratifying to see the kind of
support that he's gotten on this matter. By the same token, it really
points up the hypocrisy of these so-called defenders of free speech --
that they have not supported Ernst Zundel in this because they do not
want to be associated with a person who holds these views on the Second
World War and so forth. But there's been a wide range of support -- and growing support for Ernst Zundel the longer he was held.
The demonstration we held on the fourth of
February was coordinated with demonstrations in other American cities
on that same day or the next day, and also in Tokyo, in Stockholm, and
in Canada as well. And I just received a report that today, in
Mannheim, Germany, there were forty to fifty people demonstrating and
distributing leaflets supporting Ernst Zundel. Now it's hard to say
what's going to happen, but there's every prospect that the Zundel case
will become an important case in Germany as well.
KAS: Excellent. I'm glad to hear that.
Who has failed us in this regard? Who has
failed us in standing up for Ernst Zundel's freedom of speech? How
about Amnesty International?
MW: On just the immediate issue --
and this is a point I made in my talk just a few weeks ago -- their
behavior has been hypocritical. Amnesty International, which is
probably the most prestigious international organization for political
prisoners, has taken the view that those people who are incarcerated or
punished for free speech that is labeled "hateful" don't deserve their
support. Amnesty International has shown its hypocrisy, and the
limitations of its adherence to its own principles, in the Zundel case.
But there's more than that. It's outrageous
that the American media have failed to publicize the Zundel case or to
denounce the treatment of Zundel fervently or in any really meaningful
It's really part of a larger problem. In a
number of European countries -- France, Germany, Switzerland, the
Netherlands and so forth -- it's a crime to dispute the official
version of World War II history about the Holocaust. My point is that
it's a real failure that there has not been more outrage about the very existence of these laws.
MW: This is the only chapter of
history that receives this kind of judicial protection -- or, to put it
another way, it's a form of selective justice. And selective justice is not justice. It's a form of injustice. And these laws
exist because Jewish groups have agitated and promoted and pushed for
these laws. Because for Jewish groups, the Holocaust story is a very
very important pillar of their psychology, and of their media and
cultural role in our society. And anyone who pays even the slightest
attention realizes the extent to which the Holocaust has the kind of
iconic status it does in our society.
KAS: The Jewish power structure
has been able to get these laws enacted in many European countries,
whereas they do not have similar laws -- at least, not yet -- in the
United States. However, it's sort of ironic that in Europe there seems
to be a much greater awareness of Jewish power and the toxic nature of
Jewish power than there is in the United States. Do you think that this
will be a factor in how the Zundel case is seen in Europe?
MW: Well, I'm not as close as I'd
like to be to the situation in Europe. But there does seem to be a
shift in Europe about a lot of this. It's been 60 years now since the
end of World War II in Europe, and all of these kinds of laws and this
kind of special emphasis on Jewish suffering -- almost to the exclusion
of, and certainly overshadowing, the suffering of other peoples -- is
pretty tiring to millions and millions of people, not only in Europe
but around the world. But it's put up with by a lot of people who don't
really care what the implications are and so forth.
I think it is harder and harder for a state
-- Germany or other states -- to justify putting people in jail for
expressing a dissident view about this one chapter in history, and yet
not punishing people for dissident views on other subjects. It's a
violation of the proclaimed ideals of democracy that these countries
all claim to support.
KAS: Are these offenses under which Ernst Zundel is now charged in Germany bailable offenses? I would think that they would be.
MW: In principle, yes. But Ernst
Zundel is a special case, for several reasons -- and not just because
of his prominence. It's also because he has no real residence in
Germany. He hasn't lived in Germany for 40 to 45 years. Normally bail
is given when a person has a normal residence in a place. It's fairly
easy for the state prosecutor to argue that he shouldn't be given bail
on the basis that he's likely to leave the country. Indeed, he wants to
leave the country. He doesn't want to be there. He was forced to be
there. Normally, he might be given bail. But in this particular
situation, it's hard to see. It's also hard to see how the state --
without looking ludicrous -- is going to try and enforce the law in
this case, given the fact that -- as I mentioned -- he's been in
solitary confinement for two years and can't control the Web site
that's supposedly the center of the offense.
Be sure to be with us when we continue this important broadcast, "Zundel's Persecution: By Order of the Jews," next week on American Dissident Voices.