Free Ernst Zundel:
An Interview with Mark Weber
American Dissident Voices broadcast
February 22, 2003
Kevin Alfred Strom
Kevin Alfred Strom: Welcome to American Dissident Voices. Today we welcome to
our microphones for the third time the director of the Institute
for Historical Review, Mr. Mark Weber. Welcome, Mark.
MW: Good evening, Kevin.
KAS: Eight years ago I interviewed Ernst Zundel on this radio
program. Mr. Zundel was living in Canada at that time; he had
just survived a firebombing of his home, an obvious attempt on
his life, one of several documented assassination attempts. Ernst
Zundel has been involved in publishing, broadcasting, and in
legal battles over many years in an effort to get past the
wartime propaganda and speak the truth about his people, the
German people -- particularly the Germans of the World War II
In recent years he's continued that fight from the United States,
depending on the First Amendment to guarantee him the right to
speak freely. But a few days ago, on February 5, 2003, that all
changed. Can you tell us what happened, Mark?
MW: Ernst Zundel was arrested in his home in east Tennessee. For
a little more than two years, he's been living there with his
wife, Ingrid Rimland. He was arrested by three agents of the
Immigration and Naturalization Service, and two local law
enforcement agents, and taken away to the local county jail. And
then, yesterday, he was deported from there, and taken up to the
Canadian border. He's now being held at a federal -- I.N.S. --
detention center near Buffalo, New York, in Batavia, close to the
And there's a big three-way or four-way international tug of war
about what's going to happen to this man. There was a lot of fear
for a time that he would be deported to Germany. He's a German
citizen. He's tried to get Canadian citizenship, but he was
rejected. He was born in Germany, and there was fear that he
would be deported to Germany.
Fortunately, that didn't happen -- because, in Germany, as many
of your listeners know, there are harsh laws that are very
restrictive of freedom of speech. Anyone who, as they say,
"denies the holocaust," which Ernst Zundel is accused of doing,
can be thrown in jail for five years. And it's happened, in
Germany and in other countries in Europe that have passed these
But Ernst Zundel is instead, apparently, going to be deported to
Canada. He lived in Canada as a permanent resident, or "landed
immigrant" they call it up there, for 42 years. He still has some
He's made headlines all over the world for his battle, as he sees
it, to redeem and defend the honor of his people. And this is an
immense struggle that he's fought: a very expensive one and a
very involved one. He's fought it all the way to the Supreme
Court in Canada. And it's cost him much violence. There have been
several attempts on his life and attempts to destroy his home in
Finally, he decided to move to the United States, after marrying
Ingrid Rimland, who for years has operated the Zundelsite Web
site. The immense irony of it, in a way, is that the final legal
battle he was fighting in Canada was over that Web site. I
testified in a hearing before a so-called "Human Rights Tribunal"
-- it's a really Orwellian-named thing -- in which the content of
that Web site, even though it wasn't headquartered in Canada, was
considered to be "spreading hate" against Jews. And all of
Canada's major Jewish groups were involved in trying to get Ernst
Zundel silenced and put in jail.
Ernst Zundel is best known for two big legal trials he was
involved in, the so-called Holocaust Trials in Toronto. These
occurred in 1985 and 1988 and there were a great number of
witnesses on both sides.
KAS: What were they trying to do in those trials?
MW: The charge under which he was brought to trial was "spreading
false news." It's an odd, bizarre, law that goes back to Old
English law, and it's even been abolished in England. But he was
tried there [in Canada] -- a Jewish woman brought the original
charges against him -- and he was convicted.
But he decided -- and made a tremendous effort -- to put the
"holocaust" on trial in these two great legal battles. There were
a number of prominent witnesses, including David Irving. Fred
Leuchter testified in the trial, he is an American gas chamber
expert who, at Ernst Zundel's commission, went to Poland to the
sites of the so-called "extermination camps," Auschwitz,
Majdanek, and so forth, and concluded, based on his expert
knowledge of this subject (he was universally recognized as the
American expert on gas chamber technology because he's been a
consultant to American states in executions) -- he concluded that
the purported way in which Jews were killed in gas chambers could
not have taken place as portrayed.
Even though at the first trial he was convicted, on appeal, a
mistrial was declared. The judge, it was found, had been biased,
and had given false or improper instructions to the jury. He went
to trial again in 1988. He was found guilty. But then it went to
the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court of Canada threw out the
conviction because the law under which he had been tried all
those years was declared to be unconstitutional. It was an
And this is a point I make over and over: Every citizen of Canada
should be grateful to Ernst Zundel for having won a victory for
their legal rights. His battle made all Canadians a little bit
freer by eliminating an arbitrary, out-of-date law that was used
to silence people. And it was a great vindication, because the
Supreme Court of Canada upheld and made many of the same
arguments that Ernst Zundel and his attorney had been making over
and over in both trials.
KAS: So the trial did not turn out anything like the way his
persecutors wanted it to turn out.
MW: That's right.
KAS: The Jewish establishment, or the "Holocaust Lobby," must
have been very disappointed in the outcome.
MW: They were especially disappointed, not only because the
Supreme Court eventually overthrew it, but in the first trial
especially, there was tremendous media coverage and the
contradictions, even absurdities, of many of the prosecution
witnesses was brought out.
For example, Rudolph Vrba was a well-known survivor of Auschwitz,
who claimed to have seen gassings of people. But in the 1985
trial in Toronto, for the first time he was questioned very
closely under oath, by Doug Christie, Ernst Zundel's attorney,
with advice and with help from Robert Faurisson, the French
revisionist scholar. And Rudolph Vrba collapsed, basically. He
admitted that many of the claims that he had been making, in a
bestselling book about his experiences, were false. And he
resorted, finally, to saying, well, it's "poetic license," it's
an exaggeration -- basically, it's a lie.
Another witness, Raul Hilberg, who is the author of a well-known
standard work on the "holocaust" question, was also forced to
concede things, too, that were very astonishing. And these were
reported in the newspapers very widely at the time. Now the
second trial did not receive the same media coverage in Canada,
but it did still receive some. And in the second trial, Fred
Leuchter was one of the most outstanding witnesses. Even David
Irving testified in that trial. I testified for five days in the
The Canadian Jewish groups, and the American Jewish groups, were
furious at the result, and have done everything in their power to
silence this man.
KAS: So, even after the Holocaust Trial 1 and Holocaust Trial 2
had concluded, and Zundel had been vindicated, they were still
after him to close down the zundelsite.org Web site. Is that
MW: Right. One of the supreme ironies involving the "Human Rights
Tribunal" was that they were declaring that a booklet called Did
Six Million Really Die?, which was posted on the Zundelsite, was
the first and foremost example of "hatred." The irony is that
this was the same booklet that was the object of dispute in the
two major trials -- and the Canadian Supreme Court affirmed the
legality and the lawfulness of publishing and distributing
precisely that booklet.
So, as it were, through the back door, these Canadian Jewish
groups tried to get Ernst Zundel silenced, put in jail, or fined,
for publishing on the Internet what the Canadian Supreme Court
said was legal in printed and published form! It's absurd!
KAS: In addition to this, he was getting violence and threats of
violence at his home in Canada. Can you fill us in on that a
MW: He was the victim of numerous physical attacks by Jewish
terrorists. There were, I think, at least three attempts on his
life, including an arson attack. This was a devastating attack on
his home and residence, the so-called Zundelhaus, on Carlton
Street, not far from downtown Toronto.
KAS: Now Mr. Zundel is married to a German-American lady of some
repute as a novelist, lecturer, and historical writer herself.
MW: That's right. Ingrid Rimland is a noted, even distinguished,
author in her own right. She wrote a novel some years ago called
The Wanderers. She's a naturalized American citizen. And one of
the most bizarre, peculiar aspects of this recent arrest, which I
still don't quite know the answer to, is how it's possible for
the husband of an American citizen to be deported. Normally,
that's not done.
And Ernst Zundel has violated no law in the United States or in
Canada. I know -- and many others can testify -- that he's
scrupulous in obeying laws. But supposedly, having missed some
procedural matter, some hearing, this is again a little unclear,
he's being banned from the United States for twenty years! And
this even though he's married to an American citizen!
Now this is so unusual, this is so unique, that it gives every
appearance of being a targeted action by U.S. authorities against
a man for his political views.
KAS: Now, Dr. Rimland -- Mrs. Zundel -- is devoting every waking
hour, I presume, to her husband's battle for freedom.
KAS: She has empowered you to be the public voice in this case.
Is that correct?
MW: She's asked me to do it, because she is pretty distraught,
pretty upset about all of this. And she says she's lost weight,
and it's been very distressing, because it's her husband.
KAS: I can imagine.
MW: Also, she is so close to the matter, she felt that I could
give a little more background or perspective to it all than
perhaps she could. But anyway, I am doing this because she asked
KAS: Is publicity helpful at this stage?
MW: Yes it is. There's been some coverage in the local newspaper
in Tennessee; there have also been some articles in the Canadian
press. But the more press about this the better. The more media
coverage the better. Because it is really an unfair and unjust
persecution of this man.
As all your listeners know, there are millions of illegal aliens
living here in the United States. For the United States to single
out Ernst Zundel is outrageous. The only groups which have a big
interest in deporting Ernst Zundel are the Jewish groups. And
they've been very vociferous in their demands that Ernst Zundel
be kicked out of the United States.
KAS: Well, he had trouble getting citizenship in Canada, did he
not? And Canada is famous for having a very lax immigration and
naturalization policy. Was it due to Jewish pressure that he
could not obtain Canadian citizenship?
MW: There were no real valid reasons given. His citizenship
request was rejected, even though, as I said, he has no criminal
record in Canada. He's been, actually, a very productive citizen.
Before he became involved in this campaign, he built a very good
career as a graphic artist. He's a very talented artist, and his
artwork appeared widely and commercially in Canada, including
once on the front cover of Maclean's magazine, the equivalent of
Newsweek or Time, the leading news magazine in that country. He's
a man who, I think, would be successful in almost any endeavor,
any field that he had decided to go into.
But even though he has a clean record as far as the law is
concerned in Canada, even though he's been a successful man, a
man who has been no charge on the public system in that country,
his citizenship was rejected. And, as I say, all the Canadian
Jewish organizations, and American Jewish organizations, were
rabid and vociferous in demanding that he not be given
citizenship, that he be silenced, that any pretext be found to
shut this man up.
KAS: So finally, I believe in the year 2000, he decided to become
a naturalized American. He was married to an American citizen. He
was living completely legally in Tennessee. He had followed
through with all the necessary permits and paperwork. What
happened? What was the pretext for this arrest?
MW: It's claimed that he missed a hearing. Now, anyone who knows
Ernst Zundel knows that this is a man who is extremely careful
about dotting the "i"s and crossing the "t"s of laws and
We're also told that his implicit visa or permission to stay in
the United States had expired. But we don't really know yet quite
what the actual reason is. Those are the reasons we're given. But
they don't stand up, they don't make sense.
In any case, it seems that the authorities have seized upon a
pretext to nab him, grab him, and throw him out of the country.
KAS: Initial reports suggest that the order for the arrest came
from "a very high level." What do you know about that?
MW: Well, I don't really know about that. But when heard of the
arrest of Ernst Zundel I immediately thought of an American
Dissident Voices broadcast just a few weeks ago about the
activities of a Mr. Chertoff in the Justice Department, who has
been taking measures to silence Americans whom he doesn't like.
Now, I can't prove any connection -- but there do seem to be
increasing activities by American authorities to find pretexts to
silence people. We just don't know the whole story yet.
But it's a very ominous thing, especially during the time that
we're living in right now. Your listeners may know that the Bush
administration is already drafting a new so-called "Patriot Act
2" law, which will give the Attorney General sweeping powers to
arrest and hold people indefinitely as so called "supporters of
terrorism" on very, very flimsy grounds. These are ominous
developments for all Americans.
And the Ernst Zundel arrest seems to be completely consistent
with this effort by the U.S. government in its so-called "War
Against Terrorism" to stamp down dissent of any kind.
KAS: Indeed these are ominous signs.
MW: One of my fears is that, as the attention of the world is
drawn to the impending war against Iraq, measures like the arrest
of Ernst Zundel will not get the attention that they normally
would. Just as with the brutal treatment of the Palestinians --
which is now just incredible. The Palestinians are now living in
a kind of quasi-ghetto or concentration camp. It's just
unbelievable the repression that they're subjected to. But this
is getting a lot less attention and has elicited a lot less
outrage right now, because I think that the attention of most of
the world is turned toward the prospect of a devastating war in
Iraq that may cause the deaths of enormous numbers of people.
KAS: Here we have almost an open border policy in the United
States. Millions of illegal aliens are here. More are pouring
into this country every day. They're openly flouting the law and
taking over huge sections of the United States. They get away
with it. The politicians offer them amnesty. And yet an artist, a
writer, a lifelong pacifist -- Ernst Zundel -- dares to speak
some criticisms of the Jewish lobby, and he's hounded like a
MW: Yes. You know, there are two contradictory trends going on in
the United States. The same government that wants to "crack down"
and ensure so-called security against so-called terrorism is the
same government that permits millions of illegal aliens to live
here. It's almost schizophrenic. It's crazy. Supposedly, since
September 11th, some 700,000 additional illegal aliens have come
into the United States. At the same time, the American government
is supposedly "cracking down" on security in this country. The
end result of all of this is that it's only able to crack down on
obvious and basically harmless targets like Ernst Zundel. People
who are really dedicated terrorists can easily slip through all
of this precisely because our laws in so many other areas are so
KAS: I understand that B'nai Brith Canada has issued a statement
urging Canada not to take Ernst Zundel back. Is there some sort
of deeper game being played here?
MW: It's obvious. Both B'nai Brith Canada, which is their
counterpart of the ADL in this country, and the Simon Wiesenthal
Center, another powerful Jewish Zionist organization both in the
United States and Canada, are both demanding that the Canadian
government not accept Ernst Zundel. It's obvious that the only
really important, vociferous, dedicated enemies of Ernst Zundel
are the Jewish groups. No one else, really, regards Ernst Zundel
as any kind of danger.
To me, the outrage of it is that Ernst Zundel is asking for
freedom of speech. The organizations arrayed against him are all
dedicated, staunch apologists for a regime, namely Israel, that
by all standards is violating international law: killing people,
invading other countries. If standards are applied in any kind of
consistent way, it struck me as I was testifying, that the
lawyers of those organizations, and those organizations
themselves, should be in the dock -- not Ernst Zundel.
KAS: Indeed. It's a supreme irony: When Ariel Sharon comes to the
United States, he's feted like a hero.
MW: I've said it many times: If the United States applied to
Israel the standards it applies to Serbia or Iraq or other
countries, U.S. bombers would be preparing to bomb Tel Aviv, and
KAS: Do you think there is any plan -- or any chance -- that
Ernst Zundel will be forced to go to Germany?
MW: Apparently there seems to be no immediate prospect of that.
When I spoke to him the other day, he seemed fairly certain that
the next step is that he'll be deported to Canada. But looming
behind all of this is the great danger that he'll be deported to
Europe and thrown in jail.
Just the other week, an 82-year-old man in Switzerland was forced
to start a 13-month prison sentence: Gaston Amaudruz. He's an
82-year-old fellow. He publishes a little newsletter; and for
so-called "denying the holocaust," he's now serving 13 months in
a Swiss prison. Another man, Jean Plantin, has also been
sentenced to imprisonment for his defiance of these same kinds of
laws in France. And similar laws exist in Germany, in Austria, in
the Netherlands, in Belgium, and in other countries. They're
palpably unjust laws because they are selective laws: They apply
only to one chapter of history, the so-called "denying" of the
so-called Jewish "holocaust." No other chapter of history is
treated in this way.
KAS: Is there anything that our listeners can do, any sort of
pressure that we can exert, to prevent this horrible miscarriage
MW: They can spread the word, by notifying their newspapers,
their Congressmen, and other people. They can get information
about all this both from the Web site of the Institute for
Historical Review, which is http://www.ihr.org or from the
Zundelsite http://www.zundelsite.org -- which is linked to our
site, by the way -- which has an immense amount of information as
Again, as Ingrid Rimland says: always be firm but polite. Don't
be vindictive, don't use crude language. You can also talk to the
immigration authorities, the I.N.S. Ingrid Rimland, in her recent
daily messages, has provided lists of media and other outlets she
is urging people to contact. But the main thing for information
on all this is to check the IHR site and the Zundelsite.
Robert Faurisson wrote in 1988 about Ernst Zundel, just before
the verdict was handed down in that trial, and I quote:
Zundel may once again go to prison for his research and beliefs,
or be threatened with deportation. All this is possible. Anything
may happen when there is an intellectual crisis and a realignment
of historical concepts on such a dimension. Revisionism is the
great intellectual adventure of the end of this century. Whatever
happens, Ernst Zundel is already the victor.
And that's very true. The great victory is that Ernst Zundel put
on the public record -- and made the world much more aware than
it ever was before -- of the shoddy, fragile, and bogus nature of
much of what is called the "holocaust" story. And he fortified --
immensely -- the international community of those people who have
spent tremendous amounts of time and energy to look at this in a
KAS: Thank you very much, Mark Weber. I urge all of our listeners
to contact you via your Web site and keep updated on this
situation -- and to do everything you can to help free Ernst
MW: Thanks a lot, Kevin, and all the best to you.