History: Who Needs It?
An Interview with Mark Weber
American Dissident Voices broadcast
October 12, 2002
Kevin Alfred Strom
On our last program, we began our two-part series entitled "History: Who
Needs It?", an interview with historian Mark Weber, director of the
Institute for Historical Review. We conclude that interview today.
We received a note after last week's broadcast from Dr. Frederick Töben
of Australia's Adelaide Institute, who has been the subject of legal
proceedings that forbid him to question Jewish statements about World
War II on his Web site, adelaideinstitute.org. Dr. Töben writes to
assure us that, although he takes personal responsibility under the law,
his organization has associates in every Australian state, and that one
of his associates in Tasmania, Mrs. Olga Scully, has also come under
legal fire there for writing and publishing words which displease Jews.
For more information, you may write to firstname.lastname@example.org
As we begin today's interview with Mark Weber, we were discussing the
very laws which were used to persecute Dr. Töben, the laws which the
Jews would like to see enacted here in the United States, laws which
make it a crime to doubt what Jews tell you about race and history.
* * *
KAS: If there was a more realistic view of the so-called "holocaust"
if it wasn't regarded as a unique event in history -- then perhaps the
moral force which underlies those laws would disappear.
MW: Well, yes. I used to think that discrediting the holocaust legend
would result in something very dramatic happening. I now take a somewhat
different view. I now think that the holocaust story plays the role in
our society that it does because it's an expression itself of Jewish
power and influence. And as long as that power remains in place there
will be no real dismantling of the story. It's a kind of a
But I think that something very dramatic is happening in the world.
There's a growing awareness everywhere of Jewish power and how it
operates. And I think that going directly and exposing that power, and
its impact -- as it is manifest in United States relations with Israel,
the role of Israel in the world, Israel's brutality against Arabs, and
so forth -- all of that is really a more direct and essential task at
this point, especially because I think, for many people, what happened
to Jews in Europe sixty years ago is simply less and less important and
KAS: The National Alliance is concerned, and I'm concerned, with
obtaining self-determination and freedom for people of European descent.
And I see that the Jewish power structure, here in this country and
internationally, in hostile to our desire to control our own destiny.
There are parallels to our desire for self-determination among other
peoples, are there not? And those peoples also have conflicts -- their
national aspirations are in conflict -- with the Jewish power structure.
MW: Yes. This is where there's some common interest. Jewish power has a
determined interest, manifest throughout the ages, to deny to every
people their self-determination. In fact, I was just on a talk show
earlier today, with a Jewish talk show host in Boston, on this very
point. Jewish groups insist on making the societies in which they live
as multicultural, as non-ethnic, as stripped of any cultural, religious,
or ethnic identity as possible -- because, in such a society, Jews, who
are a very focused, well-organized group can be maximally successful.
Their power is, in a sense, directly proportionate to the lack of
cohesion among the non-Jews among whom they live.
But, of course, Jews insist on a completely different standard in the
one state that they directly control, that is, Israel. They insist that
Israel must -- and should -- be an explicitly Jewish state. But they
don't want that same standard applied to non-Jewish societies: France or
Norway or whatever -- and certainly not to the United States.
MW: And the struggle against this Jewish Zionist power, I think, is in
the interest of all peoples, all nations, all cultures, all religions,
because it's a threat to the interests and the integrity of every people
and of every nation.
KAS: After the September 11th terror attacks in this country, we saw an
effort by the Bush administration to launch and popularize a "war on
terror" that, at first, seemed to be a limited one. But now it seems to
be expanding into something like a worldwide "Vietnam without borders."
It seems to me that though many Americans are still whipped up in the
frenzy that the administration has tried to inculcate in them, these
efforts are meeting with a lot of resistance overseas. That's part of
the rising awareness of this Jewish power structure, particularly in
Europe. Would you agree with that?
MW: Yes, I would. And I think that America's perverse, unnatural
alliance with Zionism, with Jewish power, is directly a reason why the
United States finds itself increasingly isolated in the world. And it's
now manifest more and more in the debate about a war against Iraq. Harry
Elmer Barnes once said that the distortion of truth is most evident
during times of war. And during this time in which our President says
we're involved in a war against terrorism, Americans are just told
stupendous lies by our leaders.
We're told that there's some relationship between militant Islam and the
government of Iraq. It's a lie. The Iraqi regime is a secular regime.
It's hostile to militant Islam. It has nothing in common with al-Qaeda
or the Taliban regime.
The American government has made a ham-handed effort to try to show some
link between Iran and the Taliban regime. That again is a complete
perversion, a complete distortion of the truth. The truth is exactly the
Most dramatically, our President and our leaders have told the American
people that the terrible attack that took place on September 11th had no
relationship at all -- no relationship whatsoever -- with American
foreign policy. That's a lie.
KAS: The administration line is that the Moslems "hate our freedom."
MW: Yes. It's absurd. The real basic fact is: America had no enemies in
the Arab or Muslim world until the state of Israel was founded, and
until America made this alliance with Israel. Before 1948, before the
establishment of the state of Israel, America was the most beloved
country in Arab and Muslim countries, among those peoples. But our
perverse relationship, our unstinting support, what politicians call our
"special relationship" with Israel, has skewed our relations with the
Arab and Muslim world -- and now, I think, increasingly with the entire
rest of the world. This is reflected -- time and time and time again --
in United Nations votes in which Israel and the United States are
completely alone against the rest of the world. Of course, Israel and
its friends and apologists claim that this is somehow a manifestation of
anti-Semitism. This is crazy: the truth is that it's not the rest of the
world that are out of step, it's Israel and the Jewish-influenced United
States that is out of step.
KAS: It seems to me that there's a realignment that is going on in the
world today. And increasingly it is the United States and Israel versus
MW: Yes. And this is a very dangerous thing. Americans should ponder
very carefully the awesome implications of this. I don't think that
America has ever been as isolated in the word as it is now -- and as I
think it increasingly will be. Kofi Annan just recently said that the
whole world wants Israel to withdraw from the occupied Palestinian
territories. And he said "I don't think the whole world's wrong." Well,
the only country that supports the policies of the Sharon government --
not just in word, but in cash with billions of dollars annually, with
military support, with diplomatic support -- is the United States of
America. This is not only a grotesque betrayal of the principles that we
claim to uphold, but it is more and more obviously a form of hypocrisy
that the whole world can see.
KAS: With this change in world perceptions and the increasing isolation
of the United States and Israel, it seems to me that the American people
have no sense of this at all. Is the IHR dealing with these contemporary
issues as well as with the historical background to them?
MW: Yes. The two are so tightly involved. Let me put it another way:
During the 1920s and 30s, there was an immense intellectual interest in
the question of the responsibility for the outbreak of World War I. But
the interest in that issue basically evaporated, at least on a popular
level, as war clouds gathered in the late 1930s, and with the outbreak
of World War II. The origins of World War I are still of some interest
to some academics. By somewhat the same token -- it's not an exact
parallel -- the interest in what happened to Jews in Europe during World
War II is a lot less, given what's going on in the Middle East now,
when, as Jewish groups proclaim with some exaggeration, the very
existence of the state of Israel and the whole Zionist experiment is in
It's just that we're entering a new era. An era in which not only has
World War II passed, but even the post-war era has passed, that is, the
Cold War era in which the world was divided roughly along pro-Soviet and
pro-American lines. Now, it's a world in which the United States is the
one giant superpower, and it's been hijacked in service of
Jewish-Israeli interests. And that's a very, very dangerous thing.
America's taking on the attributes of an empire. We dictate to the world
the form of government there ought to be. And ultimately I can't see how
that can possibly be successful, except with enormous suffering in a
vain effort, ultimately, to try to uphold this imperial power.
KAS: What are some of the potential consequences for the American people
if, for example, we invade Iraq?
MW: Just one small example that's been pointed out is that this war in
Iraq, sources tell us, is going to cost us between 100 and 200 billion
dollars. That's a good bit of money. Now, unlike the first Gulf War,
which was largely financed by Saudi Arabia and Japan and other
countries, this new Gulf War (which has, as you know, almost no support
outside of the United States and Israel) will be a very costly one even
just economically for the American people. And the consequences of that
will be hardly known.
It was interesting, just the other day, that several high-level military
leaders all struck notes of great caution and great warning in talking
about the dangers of rushing ahead in this proclaimed war against Iraq.
I think it's just utterly immoral to hold Iraq to standards to which we
don't hold Israel or other countries. And on that basis alone, people
around the world are unconvinced by the arguments given by our leaders
for this war.
KAS: One of the pretexts that is being used by the pundits to convince
us that Iraq deserves to be invaded -- deserves a "regime change" -- is
its violation of UN orders. Isn't there another nation in the Middle
East which conspicuously ignores UN resolutions?
MW: Kevin, it's so blatant that people refer to it without even having
to make the argument. No country has violated more Security Council
resolutions than the state of Israel. Just three days ago, the Security
Council passed yet another resolution (from which the United States
abstained) that Israel has been violating. To say that Iraq should be
devastated because it's violated Security Council resolutions is
astonishing on its face. But it's just a lie -- an absurdity -- given
that this very argument is made by a country that excuses and rewards
Israel for its blatant violations, on a much greater scale, of Security
Council resolutions of the United Nations.
KAS: Well, you've got a tremendous job in front of you to dispel the
ignorance of the American people on these subjects. It's hard to blame
the American people when their media are so one-sided on these subjects.
What can an organization like the IHR, which obviously doesn't have the
resources of Fox News or CBS, do to change this situation?
MW: Well, we have a small staff and a very limited budget. But our
enemies seem to understand our ability to influence things, more than
many other people. Just a few weeks ago, the Forward, one of the most
influential Jewish weekly papers in the country, ran a front page
article expressing concern about the IHR, about my speaking on radio,
and about the conference we recently had, because they're struck and
alarmed that the IHR goes at this issue in a sober, well-grounded way.
And we have a long track record of that. Our ability to influence people
is increasing, and I think it will increase even more. We have a
tremendous challenge, particularly right now, because we're heading
toward a war. And during a time of war, passions are all the greater,
the government may do very dangerous things, but our work of
enlightening people about the background to this war and about the power
behind this war -- this Jewish Zionist influence and power -- is all the
more crucial right now than perhaps it's ever been.
KAS: Recently, George Bush called Ariel Sharon a "man of peace." I know
you wrote to that subject. Can you tell us a little bit about Mr.
Sharon's historical record?
MW: [amused] As I commented at the time, no political leader of any
other country in the world would dare utter such an absurdity. Not even
in Israel would a political leader stand up and call him a man of peace.
He might be known for a lot of things, but not as a man of peace. In
1953 he was involved in the so-called Qibya Massacre, and was rebuked by
the United Nations. Israel was rebuked by the United Nations for this
massacre of people in Jordan in that year. But most dramatically he was
the man who, in 1982 (along with Begin who was Prime Minister at that
time -- Sharon was Defense Minister of Israel), lied about the nature of
the invasion of Lebanon, which was not only itself a war crime, but
which resulted in enormous suffering and death and destruction. And, of
course, he bore (as even an Israeli commission determined) partial
responsibility for the horrible massacre of Palestinian civilians at the
Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. All this is well documented. The whole
world knows this.
For America to align itself with Ariel Sharon blatantly underscores the
hypocrisy, the lie of America's pretense that all it does is uphold
peace, freedom, democracy and justice and so forth. That's a lie. To me,
if the United States were to apply to Israel the standards that it has
applied to Serbia or to Iraq, we would be capturing, kidnapping Sharon
and putting him on trial as a war criminal as we did with Noriega and as
we hope to do with Milosevic in Serbia. Sharon's bloody record is far
worse than those of those two men.
KAS: Just in the last dozen weeks or so he's ordered missiles sent into
apartment buildings, refugee camps have been attacked…
MW: Yes, that's quite true. To me, one of the most obvious things is in
1982. The invasion of Lebanon was an act of war. It was a war crime.
KAS: What's the difference between the invasion of Lebanon in 1982 and
the invasion of Kuwait in 1991?
MW: Good point. Of course, Iraq has a lot more legitimate claim to
Kuwait than Israel does to Lebanon, but that's a whole other thing. For
twenty years Israel occupied southern Lebanon in violation of a very
explicit United Nations Security Council resolution.
KAS: Twenty years!
MW: That's just one of numerous Security Council resolutions that Israel
has violated over the years.
KAS: Can you tell us about some of your recent publications?
MW: Of course, we publish a Journal; we just held a conference in June
that was very successful, with very good speakers, outstanding speakers
I think; we issued a new leaflet entitled "A Look at the Powerful Jewish
Lobby" which I wrote and which within just weeks was widely reprinted,
not only on the Internet of course and posted, but it was reprinted in
weekly and monthly newspapers in California and Pennsylvania, and
reprinted also in the leading English-language daily newspaper in Saudi
Arabia, and it's now been translated into Arabic and distributed in Arab
countries as well. We also launched just recently a new radio talk show
project which has resulted in some appearances now on radio talk shows
-- one of them was just this afternoon.
KAS: So you're actually getting on establishment radio stations?
MW: Right. This afternoon, as I mentioned, I was on this talk show in
Boston hosted by this Jewish host who wasn't very friendly, but I think
I made the points that needed to be made.
KAS: You have an Internet presence as well.
MW: Yes. The IHR Web site is a formidable one. It's not as glitzy as
some sites, but it is a virtual library of information on a whole range
of topics. And I invite your listeners to check it out: it's
http://www.ihr.org . It's very easy to get to. It's linked to a lot of
sites, including, I think, the National Alliance site. It is, I think, a
revelation for a lot of people, and of course it has useful and
KAS: And if people are not connected to the Internet who might be
listening today, how can they reach you?
MW: They can reach us by mail at Post Office Box 2739, Newport Beach CA
92659 USA, or they can reach us by fax at 949-631-0981.
KAS: The search for historical truth is not something that can ever be
completed, is it, Mark?
MW: No. It's a never-ending quest. You know, history is really two
things, in a sense. One is it's an academic discipline. But history is
also how we view ourselves. Oswald Spengler once said that how we learn
history is another form of our political education. And learning and
understanding history -- true history, accurate history -- is absolutely
essential if, as a people, as a nation (for the sake not only of our
country and society, but for humanity) we are to survive and be free.
As you know, there is tremendous distortion of our American history,
White American history, European history and so forth. And this is
absolutely crucial. A people without a sense of who they are, a truthful
understanding of their past, is unable to make any kind of informed
decisions about their own future. We're doomed, unless we have a solid
foundation rooted in an understanding of history.
KAS: Yes, without an understanding of our history, we do not know who we
are. And we might as well be dead.
KAS: Your work is very important. I'm very glad you're there. Someday, I
think, if civilization survives, if scholarship survives, there will be
men and women who will thank you for your life and what you did with it.
MW: Thank you, Kevin, and thank you for inviting me to be on the
I thank Mark Weber for agreeing to be a guest on American Dissident
Voices and I thank you for being a listener this week.
If you are interested in pursuing the issues we discuss on American
Dissident Voices in greater depth, I urge you to get a copy of our new
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National Vanguard is uncompromising -- unequivocal -- and unequaled when
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Until next week, this is Kevin Alfred Strom reminding you that freedom
is not free, free men are not equal, and equal men are not free.